| Author | Message | ||
     Brad Stone New member Username: Bstone Post Number: 5 Registered: 06-2004 Rating: N/A |
Eric, Brayden and John... Thanks for your responses - your comments were helpful. I'm about to start cutting and have a feeling I'll be back with a few more questions! | ||
| John Stefancik New member Username: Jstef Post Number: 22 Registered: 01-2001 Rating: N/A |
Brad, Sorry it took so long to reply , but I will post and maybe it will help. Huricane Kelley was having her mast partner area repaired just as I was buying the boat in 1996. Since then we have raced about 10-12 big events and 20-30 small river races each year. I would consider this a lot of wear and tear. The repair to the partner area has held up very well. Muller Marine in Annapolis did the job, and I think it was solid layup with some balsa core. In 2001, some topside cracking appeared in the gelcoat and in the top layers of fiberglass just under the plate that fits around the mast at the partners. I put some 5200 on it. The one and only problem I have experienced is fairly small... the yard did not save the rubber gasket that fits around the mast. Consequently they also did not match the hole, and it was uneven around the spar, and I could not fashion a new one. As best I can tell they attempted to fill the void with Spar Tite, but it didn't cure properly. The only reliable, flexible seal that we (my current repair person and myself) could come up with is 5200. This will pose a problem the next time I drop the spar, and I will probably regret my decision. However the tight fit and uneveness of the space around the spar left us few options. Hope this helps. John Stefancik Hurricane Kelley (#5) Annapolis, MD | ||
| Brayden Woods New member Username: Brayden Post Number: 16 Registered: 05-2003 Rating: N/A |
Oops I never did a follow up... but the repair (solid glass) is just fine after 1 year - the whole area is very stiff & I trust the boat to get me through just about anything. The only shame is that matching the non skid didn't work too well and you can see that a repair has been made. The colour match was perfect, but the 'grip' casts a slightly different shaddow than the rest of the cabin top. This winter the boat is back at the same builder again - this time for a bottom/epoxy job, and refinishing the mast. | ||
| Eric Yaremko Unregistered guest Rating: N/A |
Brad Plate is actually multiple layers of poor grade stainless-(one of the crew is an engineer with a metallurgist brother) it needs to be completely removed. My repair was done by yard. I had area of delam. about 2 ft around partner. This was dried, resin injected, then squashed with jacks to reattach/bond. Hole repair was 1 ft. diam.solid resin/glass lay-up with Torreson's "mould" glassed in. Beyond my skill to get everything to cure properly and would be hell to pay if it didn't.Boat has been raced for 1 1/2 years without problem. Good luck Eric Yaremko | ||
| Brad Stone New member Username: Bstone Post Number: 4 Registered: 06-2004 Rating: N/A |
I'm about to tackle this partner-area repair, as my boat has the same cracking and lifting as all on this thread, maybe all with this boat. After reading all the great info here, I thought a little survey might be interesting, since so many of you have done this. If any of you would like to weigh in: How long since the repair was done? What method did you use, ie., solid lay-up, pre-molded form, original plates re-used, etc.? Would you do anything differently? Has any cracking/lifting re-appeared? Any additional comments/suggestions would be most appreciated. Thanks! | ||
| Ed and Julie Gully New member Username: Goldenomen Post Number: 12 Registered: 05-2001 Rating: N/A |
go's partner area is repaired. My method was to take my trusty sawsall and cut a rectangle out of the cabin top at an angle of 12degrees so the rebuild would have area to bond to.The alum. plate that was there looked like stratus rock about 1" thick. Working from the top I first put a"plate" under the hole slightly larger and covered with plastic,screwed to the overhead. After removeing about 1.5" of balsa between the layers I cut a piece of 1" diviniacell to fit the opening, layed 3 layers of cf in the opening, put the d-cell in over it, wet out all of the area. Over the next few days I added more d-cell above the first piece to form the base for the plate that holds the turning blocks. Before glassing the top I cut the hole for the mast, then laid 7 more layers of cf over the whole build. Later I added 4 layers to the bottom inside, using MAS epoxy through out the build. This epoxy allows you to let it cure completely, and still add layers later without a lot of sanding! After the mast was installed I used Spartight to form a gasket. When installing the bolts that hold the plate in place I used 6" long bolts, glassed them in place, after removing some of the d-cell from the holes. Whew, it almost takes longer to describe then to do the work. We have sailed the boat in the Wrecker's race 2weeks ago and also sailed to Boca Grande this past week. Everthing looks fine!!! | ||
| Brayden Woods New member Username: Brayden Post Number: 10 Registered: 05-2003 Rating: N/A |
I've taken some pictures of my mast partner repair, thought I would add them. The repair is being done at The Custom Yacht Builder in Whitby - He moulded and casr a solid glass replacement for the partner area. If you look at the bit of metal that has been removed - it was badly oxidused, and it also looks as if it was put in backwards ?!?! I will also add pictures of a few other changes too.    | ||
| Gary Hendrickson New member Username: Garyh Post Number: 18 Registered: 02-2001 Rating: |
Mike's post today in the water intrusion at the mast topic reminded me of an alert I posted several years ago that got dropped out after a website hosting crash. I've never tolerated water intrusion, especially if it could possibly get into balsa core. The best way to approach the problem of cracking and delamination at the deck mast partners area is to make sure it can't get started. Keep the area dry and sealed. My spar has been unstepped every winter. When I bought my boat several years ago, I checked the bolt holes in the deck for the mast tabernacle plates. They go through cored material which looked more like marine plywood than balsa to me. I gouged out the coring around the holes a little and let it dry out for a while. Then I filled the walls around the holes with epoxy. When the mast is stepped and the two tabernacle plates are put on, I use Boatlife polysulfate goop on the underside of the plates in a tight ring around each hole with the bolts in place, and then carefully work all the bolts at once down through the deck. When the bolts are tightened, the goop seals up the deck around the hole and also the bolt threads, so there is no possible path downward for water. I use the standard rubber gasket around the mast, and it works fine. As the bolts are tightened the plates put pressure on the top edge of the rubber gasket, and it seals up tight around the mast. The last step is to glop the goop down into the crack where the two ends of the gasket come together at the aft side of the mast. There is never any evidence of leaking or wetness on the inside at the mast. Once the spar is out I keep the deck area at the mast covered and dry with a little "house" made of a clear plastic bin turned upside down over the hole and held in place by a fender hanging down into the cabin from an eye attached to it. I did these things because I was warned about these problems by Loren Thompson in the boatyard the day I bought the boat. The deck remains normal looking, with no bulging or sinking. There's really nothing one can do about water coming down the inside of the mast during rain except to install a nice Rule automatic bilge pump and leave it on during rainy weather. | ||
| Mike Bergmann Unregistered guest Rating: |
Eric, you are right. I did go down from the top, and I am glad I did. I am very experienced at fiberglass and carbon fiber work, and I always hate to work overhead. It is much messier, the new work wants to fall off, you end up getting yourself dirtier, etc. I think the aluminum plate is a little closer to the top, but distance is not really important. If the aluminum plate itself is very badly corroded, I would agree with the recommendation to replace it with a prefab fiberglass plate. One thing to watch out for, though: one port bolt is threaded into the aluminum plate, and you will need to install something to take the threads (maybe West System hardware bonding method?) However, aluminum does not corrode heavily like mild steel, and it does not swell up when it corrodes. I had a little surface pitting on the plate which I took off with a power wire brush, and left the plate in place. All my damage was in the area where the gasket seats, so I could not make a mold. I cut a wood block to exactly match the mast tube, and used it with the original gasket as a rough template. I then laid up the new fiberglass until the template and gasket were a little too tight, and ground out the excess until the fit was OK. | ||
| Eric Yaremko Unregistered guest Rating: N/A |
Thanks to Scott, Lance,Jeff, and Mike for sharing the make-up of the deck, also I talked to Brian Torresson at Torresson Marine. He kept a mould of the mast partner on a repair so may be a source for this on boats where manufacturing the "hole" is needed. So I understand that there is an aluminum and "Mystery metal layered" plate poorly glassed into the area. Seems like need to replace the whole plate per Mike would depend on corrosion of that plate itself. So some questions yet remain? After mast removal and examination of the hole (and mould making as needed) you need to remove glass to discover the extent of damage to the plate. Is it best to start from the bottom or the top? Is the plate more toward the surface facilitating going at it from the top? Sounds like Mike did? Sounds like Lance and Jeff went up from the bottom? Any advantage to either? If plate is shot Torresson recommended glassing in pre fabricated fiberglass plate. They recommended replacing all metal to prevent the delam from returning, period. However MIke how much extra work did this look like to you and any problems, since you didn't? Also for those who who went one way and then the other in your repair how did you lay up from the bottom before doing demolition from the top? What did you glass to? Then how did you keep from adhering to the upper layers you wanted to remove? | ||
| Mike Bergmann Unregistered guest Rating: N/A |
I did my own repair on this last year. There are several causes of the overall problems: 1. Poor original construction - the original glass work here is all kitty hair and paste - there is very little real fabric or roving here, and everything is brittle. 2. There is some kind of metallic laminate material over the real aluminum plate. I don't know what it is or why it is there. The aluminum plate underneath this stuff is very solid and does not corrode enough to matter. (By the way, as some others have noted, that plate is "split".) I do not believe that this plate needs to be removed unless you have much more damage than I did, and had to totally rebuild a large area. 3. The port side is solidly supported by the corner of the head compartment, and the starboard side is wide open. The pull of the tie rod tends to rotate the whole area over to starboard. I ground out of the weak material, including all of the metallic laminate I could find, and built up with fabric and roving bonded with epoxy resin. I made an exact wood template of the mast and wrapped the gasket around it for a size check. I ended up laying up one or two too many layers of fabric, and used a Dremel tool to grind it out until my fake mast and gasket were a fairly snug fit. Cautions if you use this method: 1. I advise anyone trying this to start (after the mast is removed) by putting a wood post inside the cabin up to a plywood plate under the mast partners. Cover the plywood with wax paper. Caulk up all bolt holes. The reason for all this is that the work you will do is very messy. The plate jammed up under the partners will keep the debris out of the cabin. If you use a wood plug matching the mast you can fasten it to the wood plate and use it as your working guide. 2. I agree with a lot of other owners that the tie rod is a little too short. I ground out the upper plate (aft portion of the halyard organizer) so that it is about half as thick where the acorn nut sits. This has the effect of slightly increasing the effective length of the tie rod, because the nut now sits a little lower. When I tighten up the acorn nut I only get about 1 1/2 turns, and then I run the hex nut up from the underside. By the way, I now use a solid vang attached directly to the mast, so the halyard organizer does not have the uplift from the vang any more. The load on the tie rod is much lower than before. I did not take pictures of this but anyone is welcome to e-mail me with questions at "SailorMikeB@aol.com" | ||
| Ed and Julie Gully New member Username: Goldenomen Post Number: 10 Registered: 05-2001 Rating: N/A |
looks like my next job on goldenomen. have delam and cracks around the mast partner area.Ed | ||
| Scott Corder New member Username: Pastcommodore Post Number: 38 Registered: 02-2001 Rating: N/A |
Eric (and anyone else pondering this repair): Something to pursue prior to any repairs is this: try to create a mold of the deck opening before you do any demolition work. That way you are able to re-use the red rubber gasket to seal around the mast. On the repair to Slingshot mentioned below, Torresen Marine was able to pull a mold from my boat that facilitated the repair on Slingshot. Bottom line: pull a mold off your boat (or find another 9.1 nearby that you can mold from). If you're like me (and pull your mast every winter), you are pleased with the seal formed by the rubber gasket and work to avoid using other sealing materials that make pulling the mast more difficult. | ||
| Lance Staughton New member Username: Twospeed Post Number: 12 Registered: 01-2001 Rating: N/A |
My repair was pretty much done before this topic was covered in great detail on this site. Everything is quite accurate.Starboard side weaker. Sloppy glass work around the plate. Which to answer your question about getting worse -YES ! I've seen a boat in Portland(#52)with cracks projecting up several inches!yes inches. Its a sad sight. Mine got worse and I'm sure it was the corrosion of the plate caused by water getting into the little cracks in the fiberglass. the plate then expanded to 3 times the thickness - it acts like a laminated(?) plate as there were many layers - not just 2. I glassed around the bottom after peeling back the liner leaving the hole where it was. Then I did the top with mucho layers of glass and expanded the rectangular area about 3 times the size of the original. This allowed me to rout out wet wood and make a good looking repair that covered up the smaller cracks eminating out. It was easier to make the gelcoat look better too because you didn't have to match the textures on the deck just the smooth rectangle area. Sure the boat doesn't look "original" because of the bigger square but you'd never know unless side by side another 9.1. Since I didn't have a good area to mold-cracks and all- I decided to not worry about making the collar area perfect and used Spartite to hold the mast in place. So far so good. Glad to answer any more questions you have. | ||
| Eric Yaremko Unregistered guest Rating: N/A |
Scott, Thanks I'll call them and I have E-mailed some of the members on this thread that have evidently fixed theirs. One other question I have is what happens if you ignore it? Based on experience with previous cockpit floor delam on different boat the "demolition" required seemed to prove that the thing would have survived a bomb blast if I just left it. Anyone had this problem untreated for a while? Did it make a bigger problem? | ||
| Scott Corder New member Username: Pastcommodore Post Number: 37 Registered: 02-2001 Rating: N/A |
Eric: A repair of exactly this problem was performed recently on a short rig 9.1 called Slingshot out of Chicago. The repair was performed by Torresen Marine in Muskegon, Michigan. I had a brief opportunity to view the work prior to repair, but have since forgotten the exact nature of the what finally fixed it. You could contact Torresen Marine and ask for Brian Torresen. Tell him you know me (Scott Corder). He is very familiar with me, with the boat, and with the Class. As many as four 9.1 meters are stored and cared for at their facility each winter. He has done all the repair work on my boat (mast step, stringers and new bottom)(these repairs have been described in detail throughout the web site here). They have also done repairs on other boats you can read about here: past champions Spectra and Stimulator as well as Tenacity, Optimist and Slingshot. Torresen's phone number is 231-759-8596. They also have a very extensive web site at torresen.com. They are widely ackowledged to be one of the best repair shops on Lake Michigan and around the Great Lakes. Very competent folks. I'm sure Brian wouldn't mind offering some advice over the phone or email. | ||
| Eric Yaremko Unregistered guest Rating: N/A |
I have the problem of the deck bulging and cracking especially on the forward port. Surveyor recommended mast removal and repair of the delam. area. I gather from what is posted there is an aluminum plate at the partners that corrodes, swells, causing cracks and bulging. Also it seems that there are some problems with putting the collars back together? Please share information on how others have repaired the problem and the pitfalls you ran into. Thanks Eric Yaremko | ||
| Jeff Roy (Jeffr) Rating: N/A |
I have started the repair of my mast partners. I spoke to John D'Angelo quite a bit and he was kind enough to send me photos of his repair, which I scanned for him and myself. Before cutting these up I did some exploration with a drill. I found the aluminum plate to be very solid every where I drilled. I found craking on the inside skin on the starboard aft corner of the plate. I had to chisel through an inordinate amount of filled epoxy that was smeared over the entire area. Underneath all that epoxy I found the fiberglass had pulled away from the plate and was craked. It was very dry and surprisingly thin for an area of such high load. I think this was not built right from day one (hull #81). The plate has a crack in it emanating from the tie rod hole OR it is actually tow halve plates, I cannot really tell. Here is what it looks like now  Having looked at it very closesly I have drawn the following conclusions (maybe opinons would be better than conclusions). The entire are around the partners is underengineered particularly the starboard side. The glass work around the partner was done poorly. A mush mast step or an over tensioned tie rod will just pull everything out of whack (I am sure this was a contributing factor on my boat) In the future I am not going to tension that rod until after the rig is tensioned to prevent the mast step loads being transmitted to the deck. I will post more information and some photos as my project progresses. | ||
| William Shirley Rating: N/A |
Looked at two boats to buy and both had this problem...almost identically as described, with the port side bulging up and the starboard aft side being depressed...Deck deformation seemed exacerbated by having the stainless rod incredibly torqued which seemed unnecessary. Shep Shirley wtsshirley@aol.com | ||
| Jeff Roy (Jeffr) Rating: N/A |
Add this to the list of things to fix on my boat (#81) Lance's description is pretty acurate of how things look on my deck. | ||
| Lance Staughton Rating: N/A |
Over the past year and a half I've watched some small cracks grow and radiate out from under the aluminum partner plates. This summer it became noticeably worse including the appearance of some lifting of the deck. If you see any cracks in this area fix immediately! What I have discovered is there is an alumunum plate(actually two) between the deck laminates(not marine ply). Water has gone down the mast into these tiny cracks and caused an ugly case of plate corrosion (the boat has been around salt water over the last five years). The aluminum has "grown" in height. Literally expanding upward and pushing downward on the starboard side where there is no head bulkhead. Thanks to the "conversation" here on the site I learned a few things about mast removal,numbering bolts(by the way that one bolt is threaded into the aluminum plate and never reaches the head bulkhead).I've just started this project as it involves cutting away some deck area because of some delamination and reglassing. Any body seen this before or am I the only lucky one? Is there any chance at all the S2 factory would have the plates. I'm sure not many people have inquired about that part although I'd probably like to go with some else. Who do I email at the factory and will I get any response? | ||
| Scott Corder (Commodore) Rating: N/A |
Lance, While you're at this repair, be sure to check that your mast isn't sinking into your bilge. The "rise" of the deck may indicate that your stringers are soft and that the mast is pushing the keel down causing the deck to bulge. email me if you find any trouble. scott | ||
| johndangelo Rating: N/A |
mast area deck repair lance rebuilt my deck 3-years ago have alot of information and pictures on how to fix. | ||
| Paul Alexy (Palexy) Rating: N/A |
You must remove the rotten wood as well. Water that leaked in the bolt holes due to a poor caulk job has froze and expanded soo the deck goes up. this can best be fixed from the inside so the repairs can be hid by headliner. do not use silicon caulk.It leaks. use polysulphate.. Paul impaulsive in Florida Hul 127 |
