| Author | Message | ||
     William Shirley New member Username: William_shirley Post Number: 4 Registered: 04-2002 Rating: N/A |
ok guys/gals, need your help. when I bought Lightning Rod #96, I took it to local Annapolis fixit guru who had done about 7 mast steps before. Wasnīt cheap, but he did a really superb job with the step and the deck repair....even ensured future access to the keel bolts.... I asked him to also replace the keel nuts while he was at it. That was part of the price...anyway, when the boat is being shipped down to me, I get the invoice and the "keel nut replacement" portion of the work order was covered with whiteout...I asked him what the deal was and he said "they donīt need replacing"... so I get the boat down to Florida, dump it in the water, pull up the floorboards the next week (I had no reason to doubt him as all the other work was top notch)and lo and behold.....at least the aft most keel nut needs to be replaced. Now, my question... What is your opinion about replacing these nuts VEWY CAWFUWY one at a time while in the water. I donīt think it will be to big a deal, just wanted to bounce this idea against a wall and see if it stuck. Any insight would be appreciated. Shep Shirley | ||
| Jeff Roy (Jeffr) Rating: N/A |
I am going to have my keel dropped and rebedded in a few weeks so I have started to plan the rebolting. After I got the 8 nuts and 16 (partial) washers off I just snugged down new nuts while I wait for the keelectomy. I ran a die over my keel bolts and the new nuts will spin all the way down them freely. It should be noted that all of the galvanised nuts were mushroomed and the washers were cupped. Most of the washers were cut to fit the well. The aft most nut had two slivers of washers buried in epoxy. I have talked to all sorts of "experts" and all said glavanised is nowhere near strong enough for the loads on keel bolts. I spent many hours with a chisel and a BF hammer just to get at the nuts. On most of them I used a 1 /16" socket (1/16 smaller than spec). The only sockets that didn't split were the ones for pnumatic impact drivers. I hammered the socket onto the nut for a very tight grip. I would be willing to bet that S2 poured resin over the bolts, nuts and washers. It was one school of thought to protect the stainless from crevice corrosion. In general SS is a poor choice for anything that is going to be submerged in water. It is the used becuase of it's great strength and there really isn't anything else affordable. Covering the nuts and bolts works until cracks in the resin let water in, and then it just makes thing worse. Obviously the best solution is to keep your bilge dry. Another good protection is to spray them with a liberal amount of Boeshield once a year. (I will). Crevice corrosion is the reason you want to investigate any weeping at the keel/hull join. That is why am going to err on the safe side and have the keel rebedded. It is a peace of mind issue too. I could not find 316 SS locally only 304. I ordered 316 nuts and washers from MacMaster-Carr. That is a great site. I also ordered a piece of 1/4" G10. I am going to make backing plates to put under the washers out of the G10. | ||
| Gary Hendrickson Rating: |
Today my rusty keel nuts and flat washers are being replaced with stainless steel ones. Due to the size of the crack in the fairing of the keel-to-hull joint that developed just in the last half of last summer, the marina service manager recommended checking the tightness of the keel nuts with a torque wrench and I, fed up with the speed of rusting since my de-rusting/paint treatment last year, said "change 'em." My keel "bolts" are stainless. With hull #094, I have the newer pattern of keel bolts. There are 7 keel bolts. Moving forward from the aft end, you see a 3/4 inch bolt, then another one, then two of them side by side. Next, down in the first square opening in the mast step "floor" is a one inch bolt, in the middle square opening is a second one inch bolt, and finally a 3/4 inch bolt in the forward-most small square opening. That forward-most bolt has a slathering of epoxy resin all over its washers and hex nut, so that you can't begin to get a socket down onto it without beauqoo chipping away. The yard technician said he can get it cleaned up and out without tearing up the mast step, but it'll cost a lot of time. I said forget that one, it behaves like it's tight. After three hours the remaining six keel nuts were off (my boat is still on the hard), and S2 had used two ferric flat washers on each bolt, each of which required chipping resin etc. with a wood chisel to free up and out. The guy working on my boat had a 1 inch socket with a length that allowed it to fit onto the hex nuts even though they are a little off-center in the square opening, and he was able to do the job without grinding away part of my mast step/floor or its tabbing. My surveyor stopped in about that time and said "I can't believe it -- sounds like they used 5200 and resin to bed the washers, as well as the normal overcoating with bilge paint to finish." There was no rusting on the keel bolts (actually they're threaded rod embedded into the keel when it was poured), as they are stainless. Actually I'm told that what sometimes happens is that the boat owner notices that water is leaking into the bolt around some of his keel bolts. Instead of fixing it right and removing & rebedding his washers and then tightening things up, he takes an easy way out and just pours goop or resin all around the bolts. Two SS washers are being used on each stud, as originally built. My surveyor suggests bedding them using 4200 (not 5200), and use Loctite 270 on the stud threads to keep the new SS nuts from backing off. Tighten to specs with a torque wrench. | ||
| Jeff Roy (Jeffr) Rating: N/A |
YeeeHaaaa! I have successfully removed and replaced all 8 of the keel nuts. It took me 4 trips to Sears, 2 trips to Jamestown Distributors (both locations), countless trips to the local hardware store, a big ass pipe, lots of patience, a whole can of PB Blaster, and almost every tool I own. I love Sears! I broke a 1/2 socket drive, a 3" extension, and split a socket. Today I had an impact wrench socket that was 1/16" smaller than spec and hammered it down on them real snug. I ran the die down the threads before and after I removed each nut. Lots of oil. My 6' big ass pipe was bending when the extension split in half. The thing bounced around the cabin like a bullet! Ok stop using the extension and really lean into that pipe. POP!!! Now the bolts are so clean the nuts spin down freely. The washers were the real bitch. They took lots of chisling and slamming with the wonder bar. The nuts I have on now are just temporary. JD only had 304 nuts and washers so I am going to look harder for 316. Then I am going to build up out of the sump with filled epoxy and spread the load with a backing plate of G10. I cut that floor covering the foremost bolt with a hole saw. I am not completely sure how I am going to rebuild the mast step. I definitely need to improve on what S2 cooked up. I started to try and remove that floor and found it was very solid and the tabbing is very thick and is well adhered. I think I am going to repair what is there and then just build around it with stronger materials. I am thinking of using G10 for a lot of it, that stuff is incredible. ... and it is expensive. Putting it back together should be a lot easier than taking it apart. I finally see the end of the destruction phase and am starting the construction phase, a definite good sign. The last 5 nuts came off in a few hours. Nothing like having all the right tools. Previously I had only been gotten one off per visit to the boat. I also ground down the keel seam on the outside a little and then gouged it out with a sharp pointy scraper. It really doesn't look that bad. I can see where the water came from and it does not look like it would be hard to seal. The more I stiffen up the tops of the bolts and the surrounding areas of the hull and the keel will work a lot less. Down the road I can do a lot to stiffen up the boat. I just need to get the area under the mast solid to start with. | ||
| Jeff Roy (Jeffr) Rating: N/A |
See my recent post under mast step repair. That forwad bolt is under the stringer! UGH! | ||
| Jeff Roy (Jeffr) Rating: N/A |
Scott, I did get a keel weight certificate with the boat. I am the 3rd owner after the Liberty Cup and all of the original paperwork is still together. I don't have it with me or remember the weight off hand. | ||
| Scott Corder (Pastcommodore) Rating: N/A |
Jeff, I can't address your SS bolt questions, but you seem to have knowledge of those matters anyway. As for removal of the keel, ours went rather smoothly. We were able to clean the resulting surfaces very well. We did not use epoxy when re-attaching for the same reasons you mentioned. I don't recall what we used, but it was probably something like silicon on the interior surfaces and some easy-to-remove glassing and fairing compound on the exterior areas of the joint. The keel is held on entirely by the keel bolts. The remaining adhesion is simply for waterproofing and fairing purposes. Here's a huge opportunity for you: After removing the keel, look at the top surface to locate the official weight of the keel when built. It should be a number stamped in the lead. Although the boat was originally delivered with a keel weight certificate, you may not have received it at purchase. This will allow you to verify what the keel supplier determined the weight to be. The designed weight was specified as 3250 lbs. Secondly, ask to have the keel weighed while it is off the boat. This will allow you to actually verify its actual weight It basically goes without saying that this is a very rare opportunity for you to know the keel's actual weight with confidence. It is not often that we have the keels off our boats. Should you ever feel compelled to pursue further fairing of the keel, you'll want to know how your keel weight will be affected with confidence. The price you were quoted seems quite reasonable given the work being done. | ||
| Jeff Roy (Jeffr) Rating: N/A |
Hey gang, here is an update... I cut out all the tabbing around the mast step because it was all compromised. I was actually surprised that the wood making up the step is not as bad as I had thought, it probably could be salvaged by saturating it with epoxy and retabbing it all in. However, I am still planning to replace the step so I will not have to revisit it later. for the same reasons I have decided to have the yard remove and rebed the keel. I want to have those rusty nuts replaced and I am concerned about the weeping between the keel and the keel stub. SS will corode if exposed to water without oxygen. The yard "guestimated" 900- 1k$ which is more than I wanted to spend but resonable considering how much yards charge for anything. They will only work on a time and materials basis. I read in the sales brochure that S2 epoxied the keels on. The yard manager said that when keels are epoxied on sometimes they rip out part of the hull when they are removed. That leads to much more expensive repair. Those of you who have had your keels removed, how did it go. Did they separate cleanly? What techniques did you use? | ||
| Jeff Roy (Jeffr) Rating: N/A |
Here is the reply I got back from the factory.... ______________ You're on the right track. First, it was never our intention to install anything other than high-grade stainless steel fasteners in any of the boats that we have produced. Is it possible that a lower grade stainless, or even a steel nut or washer could have been mixed in with our stainless fasteners? The answer is yes, it is possible, however, as stated it was never our intention. Second, the forward keel bolt is virtually inaccessable with the mast step in place. It sounds like the mast step is in need of replacement anyway. We have no reports of any failures or problems with the keel mounting of the 9.1. The 9.1 Association is an excellent source of information on repairs that your boat may need, they can be reaced on the internet at www.s291.com. | ||
| Jeff Roy (Jeffr) Rating: N/A |
After a few days thought I have formulated a plan. I am going to do my best to dry the step and then saturate it with penetrating epoxy. This is not a long term fix but it should at least help. I am going to launch the boat as scheduled in May. I'll keep an eye on things under sail and refrain from really pushing the boat and/or rig. I seriously doubt anything is so far gone it is going to fail in the near future. Down the road, well.... This will give me a full summer to get to know the boat and plan a more comprehensive repair. I am going to look at lots of options in design an materials. I really like the idea of tying the keel and stringers together. It also gives me lots of time to pick a yard to work with. I am going to do the bulk of the work myself, but I obviously will need the yards cooperation and help to rebed the keel. | ||
| Jeff Roy (Jeffr) Rating: N/A |
Scott your advice is consistent with all the mail you have sent me on this topic. Thanks again. Gary thanks for the good advice. I really didn't want to deal with such problems right away but it seems the problems are all related they should be tackled in one process. I tend to trust that the keel is not going anywhere except for some flexing and a little weeping. But I am going to want to fix it at some point relatively soon (not immediately). I plan on getting the mast step taken care this spring. My concer is those forward bolts. I won't want to dismantle a new mast step just to get at them. Maybe I can replace them and engineer the step to provide access for future keel work. | ||
| Gary Hendrickson Rating: N/A |
Jeff, Scott Corder has given you sound advice and guidance, as he always does. My hull number is 094, built in 1985. When my boat was surveyed for purchase two years ago, my surveyor, who had previously surveyed about 15 other 9.1's, stated "Well sir, it looks like your keel nuts, and probably the washers, are ferric (steel), but your bolts are stainless." This man has a doctorate in marine architecture and propulsion systems from MIT. I said, that's too bad, what do you think it would cost to fix it? He said, "Don't bother. It's probably better that the bolts and nuts are dis-similar metals -- less likely to seize. You can clean them up a little with a wirebrush and paint them with rust-sealing paint, if you want." He thought most, if not all 9.1's, were built this way. I cleaned off the rust and painted the things, but first I scrubbed down the entire bilge area with one of the new degreasing detergents available for this purpose and brushes with extensions lashed to their handles, rinsed and dried, and then painted with Interlux's Bilge Kote enamel. Makes the bilge look brand new, and makes a big difference in how your boat smells. The last owner of my boat had the mast step area rebuilt 5 years ago. After the stringers etc. in that area were rebuilt and epoxied over he used a stainless steel plate half an inch thick for the new step. Sounds like it's like Scott's new step. Said the old step was quarter-inch thick aluminum plate, and it had buckled. Here on Lake Michigan the growing Farr 40 fleet has been on a rampage the last few years sailing their local regatta circuit, and the national Farr 40 circuit. When these guys go somewhere, like Key West Race Week, the boat goes up in the travelift, the keel comes off, the boat goes onto the trailer and so does the keel. At the regatta everything gets put back together, and off they go to the starting line. On some of these boats the keel's bedding and fairing compound hardly has a chance to fully set up and dry all summer (and winter). Whatever you do, don't underestimate the importance of a good solid mast step - factor in the cost of a good rebuild job. After that, stop letting water accumulate in the bilge. Stop the cooler from draining into your bilge, and keep it as dry as practical throughout the season. Some in our fleet have a small automatic Rule 500 pump working down in the bilge all the time. Good luck with your new boat! Gary Hendrickson | ||
| Scott Corder (Pastcommodore) Rating: N/A |
Jeff, We have, of course, spoken several times regarding some of these issues and I share your concerns. Here are a few comments from my mast step experience. The main thing seems in my mind to be this: if you are going to re-build the mast step it is probably best (and easiest) to simply remove the old step and start over with fresh materials. If you remove the old step intact, you can use it as a pattern for new components. Although I used stainless to fabricate a new step, several people have wisely suggested using mahogany laminated to the width required (each layer thoroughly soaked in West epoxy). Any yard worth their salt should be able to fabricate an item that size at a reasonable price. Obviously, if you remove the step to repair it (replace it), pulling the keel nuts at the leading egde will no longer be a problem (as you will have removed the obstructing materials). Having rebuilt my step, I can confidently say it is not likely to save you lots of money in the long run to attempt to patch the existing mast step. Besides, that's the one area you probably want to make last a "lifetime" so it warrants a thorough effort. Let the stringers be where you work with the existing materials to save some time and money. We did, in fact, drop my keel as part of my mast step re-build. We found nothing of negative merit. The top of the keel cleaned up just fine and the bedding area showed no sign of damage (in spite of a healthy separation crack and tremendous flexing going on prior to the fix). I don't recall what the original nuts were made out of but the original keel bolts cleaned up just fine. Because we extended my keel bolts to attach to the stainless stringers we built for my bilge, we did not re-use the old nuts anyway. We instead fabricated "extension" rods that threaded over the old bolts (obviously larger diameter rod than the bolts) and then used stainless nuts of a larger size to attach to the stainless stringer tabs (still under the floorboard level). I think you and I have discussed this (and I have described it in length in other posts to the board). Also, my keel only has six bolts vs the eight on most others, but you do not have to worry about that. If, in fact you have to cut the old nuts off, it's probably just as well since you'll want fresh nuts anyway. My experience is that re-bedding a keel is not a real expensive process. Still, you want to end up with the best fix if you're going to spend any money at all on the mast step itself. Interesting sidebar: If you pull the keel, you should find its original weight stamped on the top surface. I'd say the seller should give you a couple grand off the price. Pushing for a 3-5k reduction may be a little optimistic. I know you're alot like me in your expectations so please don't think I'm trying to play "wise old salty dog" when I say a little compromise (when justified) is not the worst result (both in the purchase and the yard work). Few, if any, of the boats out there have pristine bilges. Besides, my preference is to know a repair is done to MY standards (as opposed to trusting someone else's past judgement on a previous effort). I don't mind paying a little more in the end if I get to supervise a repair for the long term. In the big picture, it sounds like the rest of the boat is pretty up to snuff so it's probably a sound purchase if the seller gives you at least a respectful compromise. There are alot of boats around here with original mast steps that are still competitive (go figure!). As always, feel free to call me direct! Scott 616-732-3400 ofc 616-866-2670 hm | ||
| Jeff Roy (Jeffr) Rating: N/A |
I am in the process of buying a 1985 9.1. I am at the point of trying to renogitiate based on survey. The mast step is wet and is showing signs of rot setting in. The stringers are suspect, but in better condition than the step. I think if I dry them very well and reglass over and around them they will last a long time. However, when I was getting an estimate on the setp from the yard manager he was very concerned about the keel bolts. The surveyor seemed to downplay this, which has me concerned about my choice of surveyors. Anyway, here is what we have found. The nuts and wahsers are all rusted. The bilge is rust stained. The keel bolts themselves are shiny. A magnet is slightly attracted to the nuts, indicating they are probably an inferior grade of stainless or possibly worse they are mild steel. There are some drip marks on the keel indicating there is weeping between the keel hull joint. I spoke to a VERY well respected expert on this subject and he very strongly recommended dropping the keel and inspecting the bolts, rebedding the keel and replacing the washers and nuts. It looks to me that the forward keel nuts are virtually impossible to get at without taking apart the mast step first. The boat yard was pesimistic about backing off the nuts and predicted they would have to be cut off. I was really gung ho on buying this boat but no I am getting a little nervous. I am not very sure the seller is going to accept these as real problems and make a significant price reduction. Does anyone know any of the background information on what was used for the keel bolts & nuts? Has anyone dropped their keel and if so, what did they find? Does this sound normale to any of you? I am really anxious about this so I would really appreciate any/all of your inputs. Feel free to drop me an email |
